Transcript of Tatjana Dzambazova — The Art of Asking The Right Questions (#27)

Please enjoy this transcript. Technology whisperer Tatjana Dzambazova on asking the right questions to avoid the waste of talent, connecting and inspiring others, becoming vegetarian, and the myth of a better life. Transcripts may contain typos. You can find the episode notes here.

0:00Tatjana Dzambazova: Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes, the ones who see things differently. Oh, they're not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, disbelieve them, glorify, or vilify them. About the only thing that you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things. They invent. They imagined. They heal. They explore. They create. They inspire. They push the human race forward. Maybe they have to be crazy, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world are the ones who do.

1:37Nono Martínez Alonso: Today I'm finally having the opportunity to talk to Tanja or Tatjana Dzambazova.

1:45Tatjana: Yeah, finally.

1:47Nono: So we're hear in Mill Valley, in California, in the north side of the Golden Gate, San Francisco. I will briefly introduce Tatjana. She moved from Macedonia to the US a while ago. She was working for Autodesk for around 18 years, leading different launches of different products as a product manager. And, more recently, she's been working with a startup that was working on metal additive processes, and now she's working as a Director of Product Management at Bright Machines, a company that tries to do software-driven..

2:28Tatjana: Software-driven manufacturing.

2:30Nono: So you studied architecture, right?

2:32Tatjana: Yes.

2:32Nono: That was a while ago in Macedonia, and more recently—and that's something that maybe we can talk about now or later—she's even learning how to program. The first thing I would like to know is what brings you to read to us today this quote that you use to introduce the the episode.

2:49Tatjana: It's interesting. This quote is known to the whole world. It was the ad campaign for Think Different by Apple. It was recently re-sent to me by a friend. She's an old hippie She attributed it to Jack Kerouac as many people do. But why I started with this quote is because I think it reflects.. It pretty much sums up the guiding principles of my life. Because what I like about the misfits, and the crazy ones are two things. They always question the status quo. And they're the ones who offer first solutions and different solutions to existing problems. And I think many problems in the world can be solved if we just ask the right questions.

3:32Nono: And one of the things that strikes me from your personality or your identity—of who you are—is how many contacts you have or how easily it comes to you to even suggest people for me to interview.

3:51 I recently was reading The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell. I would perfectly classify you in what he talks about as a connector, [you seem to me] the prototypical connector.

4:02Tatjana: There are two sides of that. One is, I have chosen a life in which I want to learn a little about many things. Although in reality, I respect the opposite. I respect people who have dedicated their entire lives to the one thing perfectly. But my interests are so broad that I think my brain is a complete soup. I continuously read and learn about new things. And that is the path I have chosen in my career.

4:26 Some of the leadership of Autodesk very early recognize that I'm very good in a non-comfort zone in new topics. So I ended up leading new initiatives every two years, which meant I was entering the yet another industry yet another problem every two years. And due to the nature of my job, I haven't been meeting so many people that on one hand, the pool of people that I have met in my life and their diversity is amazing.

4:53 And then on the other hand, there is this Balkan matchmaking side of me that I like to connect people be it privately and romantically but, more importantly, there is nothing more beautiful [than] when you see a couple of people thinking about the same problem from different way. And they say, do you know about this guy? Or do you know about this girl? I'll connect them and then some magic happens. And there is nothing more beautiful than that. That's creation, pure creation.

5:21Nono: And you also, in a previous conversation, mentioned that some people are messengers. Can you elaborate a bit more on that?

5:28Tatjana: Yes. So there's one thing about people who are the inventors—people who have the first ideas. Obviously, without that, nothing can move. But then just as important are people who have the capacity to spread those ideas, to make them happen, to make them understood.

5:48 And I think one of the things that people have recognized, my skill is into translating ideas in a way that anybody can understand. And it doesn't matter if It is about the language, how I would teach somebody language, or if it is about technology, I continuously have been hearing, "Why is it that when you explain it, I understand it."

6:11 People love to learn, there is nothing more beautiful when you give a talk or when you give a lecture, and you see somebody's faces light up. That is because you opened a new door in their mind, you opened a new opportunity in their mind, and you taught them, they want to know more.

6:27 I think that there is a role for those of us who have the capacity to teach and to make difficult problems—or problems that are not yet understood—understandable and intrigable and lovable.

6:39Nono: What have been the most rewarding talks that you've given. In the sense of people coming to you and talking or trying to say, "Oh, we really got that when you said it."

6:50Tatjana: Yeah. It's such a panorama how many talks in the world I have given in how many languages and cultures and how many different topics. A couple of them stick out, mainly with kids.

7:03 I was invited to speak in the Computer History Museum in California and there were about I think about 150 girls. They were about age 12–13. They were learning how to code and that was supposed to be one of the rock stars of Silicon Valley, which obviously I'm not, but I was happy to be called that.

7:22 I was telling them about my life path. How I wanted to be a ballerina and I never planned to become what they became. Then I guided them through my career and through some of the projects that I've been working on. And when I finished these girls, like a swarm of bees, went around me and everybody, "How did you do this?" And one girl was super shy, and she came and said, "You inspired me so much. I want to be you when I grow up."

7:50 The interesting thing is that that happens even with adults, they come in they say, "I want to be when I grow up." Obviously joking.

7:58 Another episode was in Louvre I was demonstrating the ever first HP tablet. It was not working. It was clunky. But we had a software called architectural studio that was about sketching, architecture, combined with photos and 3d and stuff.

8:14 After a talk I gave and the demonstration, there was this guy who is some venture capitalist or investor. And he came to me and he said, I don't have a creative bone in my body, but I want to buy whatever you're selling here—which was really fun.

8:30 And the last one is my TEDx talk. [It] was really interesting because the entire audio and video system crashed in the middle of the talk—which nobody can see now after they patched it—but people were so happy afterwards and said, "Oh, you're a rock star. It was not problem. You inspired us so much."

8:48 And then one week later, I was in the same location giving a talk to about four hundred ten-year-old kids. That I think was the biggest success in life because.. Try to keep ten-year-old kids for about an hour and something quiet. The entire hall was quiet. And when I finished I was talking about the maker movement and showing them creative tools about making things and producing things with their hands and stuff. When it finished, it was still quiet. And then they all stood up and started clapping. I think after that it's like, "You see Napoleon and you die." I didn't have to make any more talks. That was the success.

9:28Nono: And what road did you.. From where do you come? What's your background? Where were you before coming to the US?

9:34Tatjana: Yeah, given the fact that I have a very strong accent, nobody can figure it out. So I get that question a lot. "Where do you come from?" And I always say, "Complicated." Because, you don't know if people are asking you because of your accent or just because they know somebody is always from somewhere else.

9:50 I was born in Yugoslavia. It was the most beautiful place in the universe and I miss it daily. That place of Yugoslavia is now called Macedonia or recently renamed [as] Northern Macedonia. I moved to Vienna after studying architecture. I was recommended during the international design seminar at which many famous architects, Herman Hertzberger, Anton Schweighofer, and Mario Botta, and many others were there and one of them invited me to work for him.

10:19 So I moved to Vienna. I stayed there for 12 years. And after that, I moved to London, I moved to Paris, Boston, and now I'm in San Francisco. A little bit all around the place and throughout my career also all around the globe in terms of globe trotting and teaching and educating technology.

10:37Nono: Yeah and, what would you say is your.. or has been, all these years, your main motivation or your mission, your creative endeavor?

10:46Tatjana: I don't know. I have so many interests in life that I wake up daily, and I think I'm such a failure. I never did what I really wanted. And it's untrue because I wanted everything I was doing, but the number of interests is so big that you simply cannot fulfill them in one life. Life is too short, right?

11:06 But my entire life was a journey of learning. I don't think I arrived anywhere. It is a continuous journey. I learned like a crazy lunatic ten different topics a day. But, have I really learned anything? I'm just always hoping that there's something left in the brain that connects the dots differently after I learned something.

11:25 I'm just curious about how everything works together. And, you know, I don't think I have a defined mission. The mission that I discovered through work was really that I teach well what I know and topics that are of importance, and topics that are dear to my heart, about taking care of people and taking care of our environment.

11:44Nono: So you mentioned to me before, also, the quote, "Working on solving the right problems."

11:49Tatjana: Yeah, so this is a very interesting topic. And you'll hear me being very passionate about that. As a product manager the role is to understand what problems are you trying to solve when you are finding or offering technological solutions. And living in Silicon Valley, sometimes it's really.. Hmm. It makes you question things.

12:07 So six months ago, I saw on Twitter and application that, obviously super smart machine learning guys have been working on, and the application was doing what? It was taking a picture of somebody and then showing you how that person looks naked. And this for me was absurd. Solutions looking for a problem. Don't give enough real problems in life? What a waste of talent when you think about it. But that's only just by picking what kind of problem and, I think, between pollution, global warming, climate change, processing plastics, extinguishing fires, medications, human rights.. There's so many real problems to solve that I was just disappointed that somebody decided to spend their time on that.

12:49 But when I talk about solving the problems the right way, my manager Abhishek Pani, by the way unbelievably smart guy and that is somebody you definitely should interview. Keep pointed to me a story that I've never heard of before. And if you know it, sorry for patronizing, but if not, it's very interesting. It's called the bullet hole misconception. It's about how we use data. The story of the bullet hole misconception is basically, it's about the world war two bombers. And the fact that if you were, the bombers were flying long missions, and penetrating deep into territory, and, you know, deadly flag returning to the bombers. Not many of the planes were coming back, the fatality was from hundred soldiers for the were dead. It was just a huge price to pay for what it was doing. So the Li command insisted that bombing was critical to the success of war. So they really wanted to solve the problem, how to cut the number of casualties, and what they decided to do is as the planes were coming back from their missions, they started counting up the bullet holes and the various parts of the plans and usually that throat concentration of bullet holes on three parts of the plane on the fuselage, the wings and the tail. So they said, Great, we have a solution, the bombers should be more heavily armed exactly in those areas to reduce the damage made by the flag and the enemy fighter planes. And by that, you know, they thought they have a solution. So obviously, you cannot arm the entire plane because it will be too heavy to fly. So the army there were most of the bullet holes weren't right. So this was an obvious solution. But as Daniel Siegel, from whom I read, the article said, It's obvious but it's wrong because actually, the guy called Abraham Wald reviewed the data and pointed out the critical flaw in the analysis, which was the command had only looked at planes that had come back. So obviously, of all the bullets that have been penetrating the planes of the planes that came back, we're still not deadly enough. Everything that was deadly and they should have armor, the games were on the planes that never came back. So for me this story is about what questions are we not asking this, obviously enough data. But they looked at the data the wrong way. And I'm very worried in the time of big data today that we look at data. But we're not asking the right questions, and blindly just following the data. So this is something that I will always keep in mind since I found out about this story. And there was also another story, which is funny also from the world war two and I'm not big on any words or learnings from wars, but it's another story about strategy and solving the problems the right way. And it was about the tank production during the the World War Two, there was a talk by Jonathan parcel at the conference for World War Two. And it was about the production strategy of tanks. And if you look at tanks, tanks productions require money, labor, energy and still so then he analyzes Germany and Russia and the America, who had how much of what, and who had the best chances to make most of the tanks and win the war. But it was not about that it was about the manufacturing strategy. The Germans as they are, they decided to do a very high quality product. They made 12 models a preference for flexibility in manufacturing if they need to change something. And they required the process that developed require the skilled craftsmen to work on it. The Russians on the other hand, they've done the math, they realize that the average lifespan of a tank was less than six months and was deployed on the battlefield it was actually less than 14 hours. So once you have that in your mind, the fact that the devices the machines are disposable as far as sadly the human beings inside of them that led them to the right solution, which was basically only three types of things. No subcomponent, no engine, nothing should last longer than the lifespan the predicted lifespan of the tractor and They crammed the factories very close to each other within very few spaces, and they didn't require skilled labor. And the rest is history. So the point is, what I learned from that lesson was not only that you really have to, again, understand what problem resorting to find the right solution, because sometimes good enough solution is good enough. And even though we know that sometimes we'll shoot for the stars will want to make a perfect solution

17:28Nono: and continue along these lines. What would you define that something is real innovation?

17:36Tatjana: real innovation? Wow. Again, for me, it is about looking at a problem in a different way and finding a solution that was not obvious.

17:48Nono: You've previously mentioned that you always were working on new projects. What were some of the biggest challenges of that?

17:55Tatjana: Yeah, so in my 18 years in Autodesk and also the last three years I somehow ended up always on the forefront of making some new disruptive projects that were often very uncomfortable to people because they were asking for a change. And we as humans in general don't like change but especially in the professional world, once you have a safe solution, once you know a tool, once you have a technique, it's very difficult to persuade somebody that there is a better new way. But there are other challenges as well. It was internal negativism in the company or skepticism. Why are we not working on that when we have AutoCAD when we have revenue, etc. So I think shepherding through negativity and skepticism is a master skill that you have to have if you want to be on the forefront and then never call myself an innovator because to be very frank with you. Almost every idea I've worked on is come from other people brand Matthews, one of my biggest inspirations tomorrow. How Carl bass, obviously, all these people had the initial idea, but then they needed somebody to make it happen. And then they would pick me. And that was very grateful because I'm really not comfortable in comfort zone. I like solving new challenges. And I think the most important thing is either if you're the innovator or somebody who is on the very front to make some new ideas happen, remember that it is never a failure to try something new, to innovate on a new solution by thinking out of the box. For me, it's a failure not to try. Innovation is not safe. People who changed the world don't rely on talent, they rely on work. You know, many people can have a good idea, but make it happen. And by the way, that is exactly what I told the girls is My only advice. I said, Don't ever let the disbelievers steer you away from a good idea. Just run with it. Just believe in yourself and go for it.

19:57Nono: What have been some of the most rewarding ideas you've Proceed. Now you can talk in retrospect,

20:02Tatjana: oh my God, I've been very fortunate to work on some really interesting things. For example, at the beginning of the maker movement, Autodesk was at that time really just focused on design. And this is the first time that we're starting to think or talk about actual, how do you make the designs and from talking about amateurs and kids and how everybody now enabled by technology can express their creativity with turn that into a curiosity and the strategy changed to actually think during design of how things are manufactured. And that turned out to be a whole new era for Autodesk supported by many acquisitions to talk about digital fabrication and making of things and the world of 3d printing, etc. So that was really a beautiful path and I was very happy to be part of it. The other one today proves even more important than what I thought it was when we were working on it is the whole topic of computer vision was Started with photogrammetry How can you make 3d models by taking photos. And that period of working on the mentor with my amazing team from Singapore and people from the San Francisco office, and Pittsburgh, it was amazing. We were working on photogrammetry and laser scanning, basically the idea that you can digitize the world, and then you can make a new physical replica out of it or a new digital world out of it. And that was the most diverse tool that we have ever created because we had both architects civil engineers, capturing buildings as if conditions are capturing landfills. But on the other hand, the very same tool was used by Dr. Lee's leak in Kenya to digitize all The scars of the first humans and animals that were ever discovered, or by slightly and the Hydras to digitize corals underwater by the Smithsonian to digitize the Smithsonian collections. It was beautiful. It was such a beautiful journey. And now that we recently reminiscing with Mr. hospital that we were right about believing in computer vision. And this was 10 years ago. Now without computer vision, you don't have self driving cars, you don't have any automation, any machine learning. It is fascinating. So it's really fun to be on the at the beginning. And remembering that many colleagues will tell you why are we doing this, this is a stupid and then couple of years later, they say you have the coolest job. And this was so cool. You just have to persist, believe and persist. So another aspect of innovation. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and discussing with friends. When I look at many companies that have started with fantastic idea that sadly, then turned out to have a lot of negative repercussions on our lives. I thought that it's almost irresponsible to innovate and to propose solutions without thinking it fully true. And what I mean by that is, if you're an innovator if you do something new, you have responsibility Do you take to believe in your success? Once you believe in your success, you can then say, Okay, I will be successful. It's a year that and that, how does the world look like with my solution already adopted fully implemented in the world? If startups would have done that analysis, a lot of the problems that we are now trying to damage control wouldn't have happened the Facebook, Twitter, great companies, what they managed to do for many people is fascinating. But we also know how much that is now misused as well, if they only could imagine the world with their solution or if the electric scooters that are now a real problem in big cities with imagined how does it look like when my solution is successful? When it's implemented when it's there? I think this is missing. And if I were somebody who is investor or advisor to startups, I would never start a company without understanding without believing succeeded and imagining the world with it.

24:02Nono: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think there are many times in life where we repeatedly see how technologies just get created for the sake of seeing if we can do them. But then we, we end up having that technology is implemented in our daily lives by just download this new app in your phone. And then there is a I mean, there are a lot of social and cultural repercussions that we now then have to damage control instead of doing more damage way right, like thinking before and actually giving it some thought and agreeing, as maybe as a community as a city or a country and I'm taking those decisions beforehand.

24:40Tatjana: For me, this also points one other thing that I've seen in my career. People sometimes confuse technology and product. There is technology and their products products are useful for people and they solve real problems. Technology can exist on its own. But you cannot make technology for the sake of technology. We have too many important problems in our lives. Just do a lot of proactiveness with technology.

25:03Nono: How would you imagine when you're developing a product? How would you take that leap and say, Okay, let's imagine how the world looks I with my innovation or our innovation?

25:13Tatjana: Well, you know, it really depends on what topic are you doing. But if you look at the electric scooters and understanding that people would just leave them everywhere in the 3d would probably try to design a system around the fact that you have to return it somewhere else. And this is just a simplified solution. I'm just saying, you always have to take an account that now we're working on factory automation, many people will tell you people whose jobs even though in majority of the cases, this has proven that it is a debatable question because the world has actually a problem finding labor. New Generations of kids are totally not imagining working in factories. But yet again, there will be places in the world that people will be probably losing their jobs through robots or machines and you have to work on the technology in a way that you can predict that and you can provide a solution that is not done after the fact that you created the problem, but is designed in your solution that you're creating the product. For example, I work in a software for how to teacher, Robert, easily if I make that software so easy that I can widen the net over who can use it. Maybe those very same people who today are doing a job that no human should be doing assembling the same thing, 20 hours a day, maybe they'll be just much happier and totally capable to just operate the machine that will do that.

26:37Nono: Yeah, now that you're touching on happiness, I think and it's really evident here in the Bay Area. We seem to be overly busy, but it seems like all the innovations and you mentioned this before, right? Like everything that we try to improve. It's a bit of a myth for a better life.

26:54Tatjana: Yes. Can you elaborate on that? Well, I recently read a book called the sapience and I strongly recommend you read it. It's from you Val Harare, it is a fascinating journey of the human species from our beginnings until today and the technologies that we have been developing and how they helped us or hurt us. And one thing that you understand from the book is that we were the smartest, the happiest, and the healthiest when we were hunter gatherers. And you know, it's very controversial to say this, but actually all the facts prove that it is the case so hunter gatherer would wake up and would go around walk to find food, given that food was not just delivered in a place they would walk for hours, and then their diet would be very diverse because today would they would find berries tomorrow something else tomorrow they'll kill something to First they had to move in order to find something that is healthy. Secondly, the diet was very diverse. So the food looking with take them about three, four hours of the day in order to do that, right. Did not get killed by an animal, they had to have a very good sense of geography of understanding the wind and the sun and the seasons, etc. And finally, after three, four hours a day of doing that they had the day free to enjoy to tell stories to the others, etc. And then came the agricultural, the myth of the agricultural revolution and that we can now produce wheat on one place, a lot of weight, a lot of food. But that was the first thing that made humans a slave to meat because now they had to stay on one place, because you had to take care of the field. Babies didn't drink mother's milk anymore because the mothers needed to work in the field to hold that turned into anything with which was not very good for for them. And from then on. There is a whole history of how then the bed people saw opportunity to use the main people and it's downhills. Basically, it's really fascinating that we have been developing developing technology to make our lives better and easier. And yet, we have never been busier, we have never been more stressed. And we have never had less time to actually do the things that interest us in life, aside from work, and that is kind of said,

29:22Nono: Yeah, so before that will come somehow naturally to us, because that, you know, hunter gatherers that work to us or to them. Yeah, because that's what the only thing that they knew how to do or pass a culture they did. That's what they did. But today, that's not the norm, right? We need to sort of fight against that and establish our own routines around habits around ways of living. Can you mention any little things maybe in your routine or little acts that throughout your days you try to do to fight that stress or that speed?

29:56Tatjana: So the first time you asked me to do the interview, and here podcast is called do less sick and the wrongest person for this interview, because I have not found a way to do less I have not found a way to. I'm intellectually aware of the trip, but I have not found a way to do this better. And it is fascinating. I do. I do take time for things that I like, I study my languages, I read a lot, my boyfriend and I always just try to solve your problems learn structures of physics or something together, but I'm just adding to my stuff and not disconnecting in those terms. It is, you know, I was recently in Europe and I realized somehow Europeans still manage to work for a living. And in America, we live for working and I feel like I'm postponing life because I would like to do so many other things. And I will say later after this after this is over after this project is over, and there is never a Later, if you don't do it now, you might never do it. So I have the discipline of asking myself everyday this question, but I don't know the answer.

31:09Nono: You mentioned Europe and America. Maybe that's a conception from here. But I think there might be companies there that act the same way. And maybe companies here in the US that have gone away, maybe that's more project based or team based, or I don't know, company based sometimes. It's like the culture of working in a company, right.

31:27Tatjana: But it's also the the systems, the societies. You know, if you're worried that you have a good job today, but after two months, if you don't have a job, you don't have medical insurance here. Well, that's a little bit different stress than knowing when you live in Europe that, hey, you've worked all your life, you have paid your dues, but you're taken care of when you're sick, old, pregnant or hurt. And that's a fundamental societal issue.

31:54Nono: Yep, that's definitely an issue. I also wanted for you to All right, you've worked on big companies and startups, and how was that different? Was it different?

32:05Tatjana: You know, actually, it's not. There are some assumptions of how things work in big companies. And in smaller companies, it's all about the people, you can have a small startup be more bureaucratic and procedural process based and a big company. It's really all about the people. In my life, I've always tried to I was just interested to make great things with really smart people working for people who are smarter than me or with people smarter than me was always very inspiring. But we are weak, we're feeble as people and there is a lot of things that can make even the best people come into unnecessary conflicts. And so it's a it's a lot of other people and sometimes a little bit about how the leadership drives an organization, that people who like to create conflict in their organizations because they think that brings new values. I don't believe in that I don't believe in leading with fear nor leading Chaos. So yeah, remember you're a human Remember that? We're Sam Harris would say we're all on this Titanic together. Time is short there is enough place on this earth for everybody there is there enough jobs, there is enough air to breathe. And we should just be more empathetic, more people and more open to other people's thoughts, ideas and

33:22Nono: lives. I think more compassion brings me more happiness. And today Yeah, in working on different companies, how do you think working from home if you have or the serendipity of meeting someone on the coffee machine or something? How does that contribute to your creativity?

33:40Tatjana: Yes, so I've been very lucky that wherever I worked, I was led to stay at home and work from home for day in a week, couple of days a week depending on the period dependent for the work on and sometimes when I write, when I need to be focused on working from home is really working well. Especially when you leave among the redwoods. I know it's very inspiring. But there is nothing like being in the office. And you sit at your desk and you know, products are not done in conference rooms or in meetings. The best ideas are the ideas that you hear two colleagues just chatting about something in your turn say, Wait, did you say that? Because if death is possible, oh my god, we can do this and this and then solve that problem much easier than what we thought and that is fascinatingly working, that serendipity of not planned. Meeting. This is the goal of the meeting. This is the agenda we'll be talking about that that's okay, that has its place. But that's not how ideas are born. And you need really people from different types, from different profiles from different skill sets, different industries to really come up with the right solutions. And that is lacking. You know, I was always joking when you go to an architectural conference. Everybody's an architect. That's not interesting. You know, we did a conference couple of years ago called the real and it was all about reality character computer vision. And who was it for? For anybody who saw an opportunity to use that technology to push their profession to the limit. So we had architects meeting doctors meeting place engineers, meeting museum curators. This was fascinating because the one would see how the other side of diplomacy wait. This is actually the same way I can do that for me. And I think bringing people from different backgrounds, and that often happens in an office even if we're all working on the same product or something you have people from marketing from legal from, and they have good ideas, they have good thoughts,

35:41Nono: who have been some I mean, if you have any stories or experiences, what has been a connection right of two people, maybe from really different backgrounds that you've made that led to something if you can remember,

35:54Tatjana: well, on that conference, there were a lot of them that happened and I will have to think about the concrete example. prosper it was we've been connecting so many people that I don't have an answer. Now.

36:06Nono: On the last couple of days, you've mentioned that you missed being creative. And that's led you to learning programming. At least that's one action that you've taken. Can you share with us? Why?

36:17Tatjana: Yeah, so need to be creative in two ways. One is I need to use my hands. And I'm incredibly jealous of your notebook and your wonderful drawings because that is what I wanted to do all my life. And I mentioned postponing life and thinking, I'm now buying everyday notebooks and Rockwell paints and stuff, but they don't have time to be used. So that's what he said. On the other hand, I decided that age of 54 to start a full stack programming web programming school and doing that with coding dojo, which is one of the more respected schools it's very difficult because the school has a philosophy that they're not going to PowerPoint you to death or do something. So check boxes. They actually throw you in the fire alone and say go and figure it out. And only after a certain amount of time, if you cannot figure out something, and the algorithms, etc, then they have beautiful material that shows you how to do it. The reason why I wanted to do that, Aside from the obvious fact that I work in technology, and whatever I do, I work with programmers, it helps me understand them. But it was more that I'm a little bit horrified in the last two years that the world started to make science be a question of opinion and not have effect, especially to social networks. People are now so passionate and so adamant about certain things that they simply don't understand. And I think my motivation to learn programming was to maybe try to find a way through graphical storytelling and data visualization to if I'm good public programming to try to explain some of those concepts try to explain how climate change works. What about embedded carbon? Why is biodiversity important to how our ecosystems failing us? There is somebody who I completely admire, we met. And this is an adorable guy. His name is Jonathan Harris 24. You two should make a project together. He's a storyteller who is using data from the way started using data from the web to visualize it in a way that is mind blowing. And he was probably my first inspiration to do that in Bali. Yesterday, I read an article about pictures of species that are still alive, but they're on the brink of extinction. And it was basically the idea was that the pictures were composed of as many pixels as there were animals to life from those species. And it was a campaign created by an agency in Tokyo. It was actually somebody who did it. They said there's a programming challenge to do it, but it's fascinating how easy it is to convey the message. You have a picture that the pixels are on the hundred pixels. You cannot recognize the animal anymore. It's not there. It's finished and it's gone. And there is a power. People don't understand abstract concepts. If I tell you 1,000,000,000,010 trillions, does it make a difference if we have no idea what it means people don't have time to read enough to, and to validate sources of what they're reading. So we live in a very dangerous era where we need to find a way to learn from the data properly, and to maybe use new technologies to make it available to others.

39:35Nono: Well, that's impressive as you're trying to like to actually get into the web station programming and understanding Yes,

39:42Tatjana: I really hope that that is what I will learn. Yeah, people like Aaron Koblin, you know, there's so many people who have leveraged this medium to really make things interesting or more understood, I hope.

39:54Nono: Yeah, sure. You shared with me the quote of Steve Jobs. Everybody needs to learn how to program because it teaches you how to think.

40:02Tatjana: Absolutely. That was actually probably my first inspiration to do it because I was intrigued. What does he mean? And now that I've gone through HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Flask, Django Jinja. Just kill me how many platforms and languages there, I really see what he meant. Because in programming, the first thing that I learned and especially through the way how coding dojo is doing this, you need to make sure you understood the problem. Well, don't skip over, don't, you know, don't rush through it and little read quickly and then immediately think of the solution. This is half of the problem. If you understand the problem. Well, if you really took time to understand it, the solution will start start emerging. And then the second step that I learned through programming is that every problem can be subdivided into smaller chunks that are much more manageable to overview to solve and to test. For the holiday, along those two things, it's really changed my my everyday life thinking of solving problems.

41:08Nono: Yeah, everything can look overwhelming, right if you try to approach it all at once.

41:12Tatjana: Absolutely.

41:14Nono: I mean, I'm also surprised of how many little things of code are already made online for us to us.

41:20Tatjana: We're so spoiled. There's so many things that you know you you had an interview with Ben and processing them for them Friday, it was so beautiful what they did, because, you know, at the time, I did not know anything about programming. I didn't know much more now, but it was so beautiful to just go through the examples. And just by taking this code snippet and changing it, you already learn and that is beautiful. Learn two examples and then start documenting them one after the other.

41:48Nono: Yeah, that's, I mean, for me, that's fascinating. Who are other people who inspire you?

41:53Tatjana: The list is probably long and very diverse. Alex Dagon who runs conservation x labs, I would work for Alex any day, anytime. He's personal history and his latest book, you really just have to read it. The Snow Leopard story, created conservation x labs with the idea to use technology to solve real environmental or conservation problems. And he's connecting people, companies and making a lot of competitions with ideas how to solve invasive species, or this and that fascinating and he's just an unbelievable gem of a person. So Griffith, a genius, the most humble person that I've met and the smartest in the world, he runs other labs. And that place is just bursting of ideas and experiments and prototypes of anything that will make this world better be from renewable energy solutions. He and his friend corvin we're creating energy with kite flying that is now a Google technology, solar and then soft robots so that we don't send humans into combat but We send robots that are disposable and cheaper than the expensive robots that people were sent in front of. And one person that I highly respect is Emmanuel. The maraud is the word of the Virunga National Park in Congo. That is a unbelievably special human being. He's trying to recreate society in a region raped by war, and paramilitary groups for the last 25–30 years. This is the region where, after the Rwanda genocide, a lot of people who escaped have migrated from Rwanda. And the war basically continues now and the Congress side is trying to build a solution to bring stability to create jobs to create meaning alive for these people to preserve the nature to stop the cutting of the forest. These are the forest where the last mountain gorillas are living, to educate by mere understanding of the solution and proposing the right problems and navigating through complicated corruptions in etc. So he's basically building hydro electrons to create energy because he realized that the energy is the best return of investment on poverty and take it from there. And his work is just fascinating. And if you have not seen the movie, Virunga that was nominated for Oscar a couple of years ago. Peace Richard there, his team is featured there, Eric and I went twice to Congo. And you feel so humble when you see people who dedicate their entire lives to a really worthy cause. And then other people are Sam Harris. If it wasn't for Sam Harris, I wouldn't be the same person anymore. Especially not in the last two years. I don't meditate but my meditation is to listen to Sam Harris, because he's a fascinating philosopher and scientist Maria Popova. Unbelievably prolific person. She runs the blog, the brain pickings and connects literature and art in a way that nobody does. Sam Harris said she's the best reader he has ever met. She makes art of reading. It's beautiful. Iris van herpen. She's a friend. She's probably the number one fashion designer in the world and her things is always say this is the Leonardo da Vinci of the 21st century and in the world of fashion because she uses technology to make something that is new, creative, sensual, and not using technology for the sake of knowledge. None of these people do. There are many others.

45:29 Adam Lowe from Factum Arte. But what ties over these people is that they do something new. They question. They do it differently. And they're unbelievably hardworking and prolific. And that is an inspiration.

45:43Nono: Thanks so much. Now you got a lot of people and I'm sure that if we had more time, we will go over longer.

45:49Tatjana: Yes. But I'm not as important as they are. So it's much better interview them.

45:53Nono: I'm sure there's that. So I wanted to know we've talked a lot about technology. Before we talked about being BC and things like this, how do you disconnect? Do you manage to get away from the screen? Do things with your hands, as you said before analog things?

46:10Tatjana: How do I disconnect? Do I ever is the question it seems from the patterns of what I do and I try to disconnect disconnecting from me is about connecting with people and with nature. I enjoy nature and animals. We decided to move into our tree house in the woods here because there is something calming and something that you go home when the colors are green and blue. I have been for 1314 years every year going to Africa to spend the month with big cats and rhinos and elephants etc. Because my heart bleeds about what's happening and they leave now in reserves. They should never do that. But that is the only safe havens for them. So I'm volunteering from medication And getting them to just spending time with them and hope they have just as much fun as I do that for me is having my nose stuck in a line for is calming me down like no other way in the world. Otherwise on the practical side we kayak with paddle we hike. The advantage of living here is that we have a two hour hike to the ocean or just hike up the mountain and there is a lot of philosophical conversations happening. I do a lot of reading. I love cooking, making stuff with my hands I do. I was sewing and knitting a lot with my mom. My mom was a genius. She knew how to do everything I learned absolutely everything from her all my clothes when I was a kid, we were doing them etc. So I don't have enough time for that I do make a sweater or two a year for my friends of my boyfriend but I wish I can have more time to draw to write the Yeah, it's it's one life and you just don't know Were to spend it on.

48:02Nono: Yeah, thanks for sharing. I heard as well that you're a vegetarian.

48:07Tatjana: Yeah, that's a small, big topic. So I've been enormously connected with animals all my life. My family, we lived on the fifth floor in a socialist building. And we had at some point 12 kids, a dog, some hedgehogs and rabbits, fish birds. We even had four month baby lion from the local zoo. When people are coming to our home, they're like, Oh, we came to the zoo. jungbub It was crazy. But we are all very connected with animals. My love for animals has made it very difficult for me to eat animals. But Yugoslavia at the time we didn't have anything that was non seasonal fruits or veggies. So you you ate whatever the season was. And while there is not much meat in the food there is still making the food so when I was 11 years old and asked my mom that I would become vegetarian, she was really worried because I was 36 kilos. I was really Really, very skinny. look very undernourished. So she did not go through that very well. So I didn't manage to do it. Then Then seven years ago, and I met my boyfriend that realized that he really understood food he understood where fibers come from proteins, etc. And they realized it will be easy to do it without hurting my body. So I switched from one day to another. And it was fascinating how much I found peace both mentally in terms of I didn't have any more conflict. And also, my energy came back I was so full of energy, so Oh my God, I was so tired in the evenings otherwise, and now Not anymore. So people like me who have decided to stop eating meat because of the unbelievably cruel industrial husbandry and industrial way of producing milk. Meat, you know, are usually considered Oh, some hippies or some activists etc. Said I did that from my own. Peace I, it is a sacrifice when you smell and meat on a grill, of course you want to. But the way I've managed to completely ignore it is by basically imagining the animal looking at me with wide eyes and longer embrace, both smiling and like no, I don't need to eat you. The problem that we have today, though, is much bigger than just understanding that animal cruelty is absolutely horrifying in the farms and anybody, anybody who would disagree that that is happening. Please arrange the day visit any farm that you want, it will not be possible the farms have triple fences like prisons, and it's very, there is a reason why it's because due to the push of cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap food and feeding the Evergreen population, the methods in which industrial farming is happening is just horribly brutal. So the problem what we have now is the impact of producing meat on Planet. This is something that I've been very passionate about and having really hard time to explain to friends who simply do not seem to get it. And it's about the companies who like impossible foods are beyond meat, who are trying to solve the problem of creating plant based meats. And here is a solving a problem the right way. But they're saying especially the sea of impossible foods is very vocal about this. We understand that we humans are weak, we love eating food, we like to love eating meat, meat has always been the place on the table, the grill, the community, etc. So what they're saying is, we're not here to tell you not to eat meat, or to make all of your vegetarian. We're here to understand why do you like meat and give you an alternative that is healthier, and that is better for the planet? And additionally, that is not cruel to animals, right? So if you ask any meat eater, why do they eat meat? Don't eat meat because it comes from an animal carcass they did in spite of that. They don't like the fact that they that there is an animal that was killed. Actually, whenever I say I'm vegetarian, people immediately say, Oh, I eat very little meat. And it's always like an excuse. And often it's not even true, but it doesn't matter. The point is we feel guilty that we do that. But these companies, executives do not want to tackle the guilt aspect. They want to understand why is the music either because it's delicious, right? Or because you believe that those are the best proteins in the world for your body. So that is what they have done. All the ingredients are plant based, there is not a single ingredient in their solutions. You can read them on the website that you don't consume today through other foods, ponds or myth. And they've managed to do products that you cannot believe that you're not eating meat. They're just as tasty. They have the absolute right level of protein that you would have gotten and Are Not bad for the environment. Because what's happening today, if you can't, for all the buildings, roads and paved surfaces in the world, they occupy about 1% of the Earth's land surface. And when it comes to the land of grazing and crops, it's 45%. So basically, we are cutting forests, we are ruining ecosystems, why? To build fields, to do crop on them so that we can feed animals so that we can then kill the animal state food. And the whole idea is that the animals are very inefficient way of translating the plant biomass into protein, there is a much easier way. And with one 10th of the land that we use today, we could just immediately do this plant based products and feed the whole population. And there's so many myths about this. There's so many fake obviously industry supported things, people who work in the industry who don't want it to go away. Usually People say Oh, but it's processed food is processed even mean, every single product we eat is processed. Only if you don't pick it from the tree, it might not be processing or you pick it from the tree, it might be genetically modified. Because we as humans have been genetically modifying absolutely every animal and plant since we exist. Carrots I read recently have been only orange for the last 70 years or something like that. So using words, and instead of trying to understand the topic, that it is really devastating the effects of it, especially beef production, which is both what both of these companies are trying to. So I think that we're, we're all adults, and we make decisions in life of what we care about and what we want to impact. But in this particular case, it's not about saying, Oh, well, I will stop eating meat for a few people or some people have told me why don't you just eat veggies and stuff. I can leave without the meatless meat with the plant based without the plant based meat, but it's about The people which is 95% of the population that still is too weak not to eat meat if we provide solution for them. I don't think that anybody would say no, I want the meat that comes from the carcass when they know that they can help change the world because some problems today cannot be solved locally and cannot be solved solved. Just a group of people. We can only solve them globally and together.

55:23Nono: Yeah, I think these types of plant based meats are here to stay with us. I think they're pretty good alternative to eating meat. I tried them yesterday. I think they're they're pretty good. And even the sausages right like burgers and Sicily. So yeah,

55:38Tatjana: so yesterday, I tried beyond burger and beyond sausage. And this was at home. I just quickly did it on my frying pan. If you tried in any of the companies that they're selling beyond burger, Burger King, etc, when they have a real grill. It's really tasty.

55:54Nono: And I think what's more important is that many times, we meet sausages are things like this are cultural, right? Like maybe like the prototypical American barbecue for a birthday or something like that. So I think like, allowing for something to, to have the same sort of meaning or cultural you know, meeting but being an alternative to actual meat it is ya

56:18Tatjana: know it there is so much face I'm not gonna I can give you a couple of pointers that you can post but the fact that one burger consumes 300 liters of water doesn't even cross people's minds. And it doesn't just consume the water. by consuming the water it also pollutes the water. But this, this global demand for meat and fish, by the way, and dairy foods is basically the the primary driver of a complete meltdown in the diversity of wildlife population and the ecosystems and again, back to education and understanding things. While I care about the ecosystem. That is where it comes from. We need to learn about this thing.

57:00Nono: know maybe I do include myself on the people who say I'm trying to eat less meat? Well, I'm actually do maybe I should be more radical and actually take choice or maybe be a bit more disciplined in that sense. But I do like I do really, you know, embrace that we actually need to have systems to not be so centered around just, you know, this is the way we've been living. And that's how we're going to continue living. I think the alternatives are not that bad. And it really makes sense now that we know, you know, it took 40 or 20 years to know that cigarettes were actually killing us. And we've got to, I don't know how many years until we've seen that we're killing the planet, right, in some sense. So yeah, I think I mean, I think we can all be as it's really about awareness

57:49Tatjana: that each one of us can do something about it, but also supporting solutions that are actually going to have a much bigger impact and you know, Some of the naysayers say, Oh, this is lab created process written, I'm never gonna put it on the plate of my kids. Well, I will just say, your kids might not have a table to put the plate on and the planet to live on, if we don't do something about this problems, and I really, absolutely believe in that, you know, there is one phenomenon that I find the most inspiring in my life. It's called murmuration. I don't know if you know what that is. Well, we'll post the video. murmuration is when you have a flock of enormous lots of birds. And they start dancing together, in in the sky, and it's one of the most beautiful things in the universe. And if you just think that each one of those birds is one of us, and we all go our way, but the right way we can make beautiful stories. We can make beautiful things in life. And I still believe that that is possible.

58:55Nono: Nice. Where would people connect with you online

58:59Tatjana: where Hmm, you know, I do have a Twitter account, I don't really kind of use it much. I created Facebook account when Autodesk was researching Second Life and Facebook very early days just understand what it is. I am now coding my own website and got got some God helped me. It advances my programming skills. So best thing to connect with me is email. I do post on Instagram from time to time, so it's more friends and stuff, but you're welcome to join.

59:33Nono: Do you have a domain name for your website?

59:36Tatjana:, and .net, and dot whatever I bought. Haha.

59:41Nono: Okay, great.

59:45 Would you have any book recommendations?

59:47Tatjana: So when it comes to books, books that have definitely remained my entire life is a reference and books that I've recently read. From the books that I've recently read. I really strongly recommend The CBS it has been most useful and thought provoking. Also the 21st 21 question for the 21st century, both from you Val Harare, in a book from Sam Harris would also bring you a lot of value. Otherwise, the user illusion from tour Nora trenders. That book is fascinating. And it's about cutting consciousness down to size and it's a very long read, but it's very worth it. On the literature side, I love the librarians from borkus I love Italo Calvino, every book from our Covino I like break all asunder break on and never tend to be an Easter. Patrick scandal the Russian classics.

1:00:41Nono: Thank you. What's your favorite book of Sam Harris?

1:00:44Tatjana: I think that was the name. His first book mostly informed me about my dilemma. So I've never in my life tried any psychedelics, any hashish any marijuana. I've never managed to get out my in a mindful meditative own. So to just see how his path started and where he is today is very useful. And I envision, envisage the scene of him by the lake and going through this new world that you will never open unless you meditate a lot or take psychedelics.

1:01:19Nono: What would be your message to the world?

1:01:22Tatjana: empathy with other people, whenever your dad is put yourself in their shoes, imagine you are the father from Syria with a kid in their hands. You were the person from the Bahamas who just lost everything. You're, you know, whatever. You find yourself not having enough. You're not compassionate with just put yourself in their shoes. And other than that, really, please, please silence is not debatable. It's not a question of an opinion. We don't need it is a very sad time in history. If we have a single Senior old girl gretta, reminding us of that, that we have to stick to facts. And we have to be curious to learn before we have an opinion about something.

1:02:10Nono: What would you do if you were rich?

1:02:13Tatjana: Well, until recently, I was always saying, I only want to be rich to be able to sponsor some of the most creative people. I've seen people who are talented hard workers, and they've just not yet broken through. But frankly, with ever growing more serious problems on the planet, I think, I will do just one thing, I would buy every piece of land they can. So I can save it from being converted into crops. I can save it from trees being cut. I can leave the place where gorillas are on good times or Jaggers can leave. Then this is not just because I love the animals but because but then disappearing, the whole ecosystems disappear. And we were just really, the outcome is not something That is debatable be done to that. And frankly, I'm very disappointed that this is not something that many leaders of companies were very successful who have a lot of money are not doing that. Everything that is for sale I would buy as a land

1:03:16Nono: most tourists, but that's a really empathetic way or a compassionate way of using your money. What do you think of slowing down in life?

1:03:26Tatjana: I do think a lot about that, but I have not found the way. One of the most beautiful moments with my boyfriend is when we imagine an old RV and we are having everything that we own with us. And we just travel around the world meeting people actually even better you travel up to a point but then you continue walking and traveling because according to Verner Hertzog who is one misfit that I really love, you learn most about life and about people if you travel sec, buy food But really questioning and material possessions, questioning, working 20 hours a day seven days a week. Questioning not having time to spend enough with your friends or especially with nature etc is a daily topic. And the dream of having a tiny house or mobile house, the grandson that is on top of an RV that is solar driven, etc. These are daily fantasies that we hope one day will be true.

1:04:30Nono: I hope I can do that as well.

1:04:32Tatjana: Yep, we will meet on the road.

1:04:35 And one last thing. I really invite everybody to whatever you decide to do in life, do it fully. They passionately put all your energy in it. Be serious, be playful, but be serious about it because life is too short to be small. Your time is valuable. And you should never do anything if you don't believe in that. So just give all your best because there is nothing Beautiful to seeing the power of your passion and your energy when people feel it. That is something that has been a true privilege for me after talking to people or giving conferences, conference talks to just hear, you're so passionate, your energy is infectious. inspired me. Do that. Believe in what you're doing. Give your best. Okay, we're getting to the end of this episode. I

1:05:26Nono: sometimes ask this and I wanted to hear if you have any questions for me.

1:05:32Tatjana: Okay, you know how we met. We actually meet for the first time but you are so young and at the same time so prolific. You draw, you write, you're very professional about running the podcast the same way. What do you want to be when you grow up?

1:05:50Nono: That's a really good question stuff. I would imagine myself doing maybe the same projects that matter to me and That I can lead. So I have the decision to take whether I continue with them or not, in communicating a lot. So doing things like this, like communicating through sketching through writing through podcasting, or maybe even video, so film or a short film or things like that. I think that's what I'm more passionate about. I think there are also a lot of opportunities in connecting with people or allowing or enabling people through technology. So as well like creating things that you think are going to allow people to access things they didn't have access to before. And I don't know I think that summarizes it. I think I also want to keep learning a lot from people like you, for example, or, you know, Sam Harris or..

1:06:43Tatjana: I'm learning from you.

1:06:44Nono: ..or other people. So thank you. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers it. But..

1:06:50Tatjana: It definitely does. So in a way you're also feeling that you, you want to use your talents and their passion through certain mediums to give people access to information or as you did with me to inspiration because that is also very important. Is there any one big problem that he would like to see solved in the world? I'm

1:07:14Nono: not completely sure what that would be, I would have to give it more thought. But if I could choose one thing, I think trying to help people find their passion, so something that they're that they can do that is you know, many times I include myself we do work projects or even time jobs or other things that are really utilitarian. So you you know, you get up get a paycheck and or maybe money that is going to allow you to maybe buy recording gear or a new laptop or just going to trip. Other times the money fades away to the background and you just doing that because you're improving your skills you're working with people that you feel is worth working with doing a project That you know, you're passionate about, it's not that easy. I think it's not also not super necessary to do that as your main job that you can have that as your own side projects as well. But I think I, you know, the luckiest part of what I have is that I did a lot of sampling of like trying computers or trying art or trying design trying a lot of things. Until I don't know if I found my real passion or No, but I chose the ones that I seem to stick more with that I can continue throughout the years without getting bored about it. And I found enough image new challenges. Yeah, new challenges and subtleties that change the project like you know, now I'm here in Mill Valley with you recording in someone's house. And, you know, I wouldn't have imagined that this would have happened this way. But I contacted with us I've got to do with a lot of other people. And I ended up being here. Today, I think that I mean, maybe that's something that I really want to do is to learn how to connect with people deeply. and maintain those contacts for, you know, many times it might seem superficial and really out of interest. But you learn that at the end of the day, even this interview, right, I have to thank you like I spend the whole weekend around this neighborhood. And it wasn't just sending an email agreeing on a scheduled time,

1:09:26Tatjana: in the whole connection. Yeah, meeting

1:09:28Nono: for two hours a day. There's some deeper connection there. So I would say that what I want to do in the future is create the space for these to be able to happen more often. I know that getting people yeah, it's about people as you said. So yeah, I think that summarizes it.

1:09:48Tatjana: What would you do if you were a millionaire?

1:09:51Nono: If I were a millionaire? Well, I are a billionaire or a billionaire. Well, I have to say, I am not a millionaire or no billionaire. I'm not What I have started doing already and this is I've been saying this to a lot of people in the last year, I think it's that I asked many people I asked like, what would you do if you were 20 years old or 30? What will you tell yourself? Right? So for me, I'm realizing now that one of the things that I'm going to regret, if I don't do now is if I don't connect with mines, like that are also creative on one of the projects, and start collaborating with them working with them. Right now, I recently had a really lucky collaboration with I mean, we had to work it out. But with the nataly, which is a friend of mine, that is now dedicating his whole career to film, short film or videos or hopefully long films in the short run. And we made a collaboration right like of course like you have to it. This is not like when you're young, but you just collaborate. You just spend weekends and the time doesn't matter like his time is valuable for me and the household. So to put my time so this is something that you have to say okay, you're a professional, you're creative I appreciate what you do by bu for this thing and together we create something that is you know, I don't know it might take in someone or it might just be for us but I think it it has the ability to communicate better and to reach people in a different way than just writing a blog post or something like that. So what we produce so far and it will be released I don't know when this episode will air but will release a short film that we got this great gal announced like it

1:11:33Tatjana: was the topic.

1:11:35Nono: The topic we he called it Sisyphus which is a you know, like the main name to every everyday like push a rock over the mountain, day after day. So the topic is about trying to render an aspect of getting simple, in which you have the same life over and over many people like you I mean, you they after they have to repeat the same routine of leaving your house. Going to work doing the same tasks and then coming back and how maybe there is a way to escape that right so that that kind of thing. But for me what I take away and when I wanted to say that, that this this makes me happy being able to collaborate with our creative people do a collaboration that makes sense for both of us. I think he enjoyed the project a lot in the fact that now even a regional festival Film Festival festival, like selected to be you know, premiere there, it just makes it a bit more real, right? It's like the like the fact you record with a friend record with a few people that you met in, you know, you go to the step of actually making it more efficient, put it on YouTube, put it on Apple podcast, and Spotify. So I like that thing. I think that's one of the things I'd really like you said, What would I do if I was rich? Right, that was the question. So why I told the story is because what I will do if I was reach, if I were reach, is actually do maybe In architecture projects, or design furniture, things that, you know, as you said before, sometimes we just do things for the sake of doing them. I think that's rewarding. I think it will try to tie that to some other goals, you know, like to help in some way other people and improve people's lives in some way. But that's something that you know, at the end of the day, it's not only money that gives you that capability, but those connections like actually bonding with people that you know, have the same passions and

1:13:34Tatjana: time remember what I said during our dinner yesterday, that my dream of retiring this the couple of friends to buy a piece of land either in south of Spain or in Italy. Everybody has their own little house, but we have a big barn in which we all make jams cooked together, read literature, play theater plays, but also build furniture. create beautiful things, and though sustainable and quality There's something about sharing with others and doing things with others. For me, it's super boring to go for a dinner with friends. I want to make things with friends. The moment you make something, it becomes something third. And that reference lives forever. It's some different thing. So it's beautiful that whatever question I asked, you always come back to the same thing that for you. It's about exchanges of minds exchanges of creativity, creating some third new value between two people. And maybe just placing some thought teasers through your artwork through your podcast where films for people to stop and ask some questions, and it's beautiful.

1:14:49Nono: Well, thank you for doing this mini interview to me. I yeah, I think that that makes the episode I would like to thing that Deanna. Thank you so much for your Time.

1:15:00Tatjana: Thank you. I was always wondering why would they want to talk to me but it is a pleasure to spend a couple of days with you. And I hope you have some of the people that I mentioned on your future podcast because some of them are real misfits and changers.

1:15:13Nono: Yeah, these are the connections I was talking about. Right? Like she's always like, these are the people I like that you can connect with. And yeah, I think it's been hard to schedule this to be in person right? Like I think the the connection in person makes it it gives you the different dimension, and it was worth the wait. And yeah, really, thanks for your time, I will add the show notes or everything we've mentioned a lot of stuff so I'll add everything to as I mentioned before getting forward slash Danya. That's the a NJ a. And you can see there everyone we named linked to their profiles are some hints where you can find more about them. All the books, all the links, all the Some of the companies are some of the tools that we've mentioned. And yeah, I really hope you enjoyed it. And we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Before you go, I'd like to remind you that you can find all the episodes on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever you get your podcasts. If you're enjoying the show, it'd be great if you rate it on the apple podcast store because that's one of the best ways for other people to get to know about it. I would like to hear about it as well. So if you like the podcast, if you're enjoying the show, I would really love to hear from you. You can just send me an email at mail. Nono Ma and let me what you think

January 15, 2020


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